PODCASTS

Kristen LaFrance

November 15, 2020

Welcome to the latest episode of the Modern Attention podcast. I’m excited to introduce you to today’s guest Kristen LaFrance. Kristen is Head of Resilient Retail Team where she is helping retailers which have been hit hard by the pandemic. She’s also been affectionately called the Mayor of DTC Twitter and frankly is just an all around kind person.

In today’s episode we talk about

  • Her personal journey into DTC and on to Shopify retail and the lessons she’s learned
  • Her perspectives on the relationship between DTC and retail.
  • Her views on the role of data in commerce today.

It’s a value packed and frankly fun episode and excited for you to hear it. So without further ado, let’s get into the conversation:

Transcription:

David Hoos: Kristen, thanks so much for coming on the show, this is super fun, excited to finally connect with you. And, well, not in person, but virtually

Kristen LaFrance: As close as we can possibly get.

David Hoos: Yeah, totally. And I'm kind of jealous. I see you doing stuff in Colorado and I grew up there, so I'm always kind of living through your post of Colorado stuff.

Kristen LaFrance: Well, good. We're good.

David Hoos: Awesome. Well, where I wanted to get started today is just to kind of talk about your background in DTC. I mean, you're at Shopify now and you've done some stuff with retention in the past. What's your back story? How did you get to where you are today?

Kristen LaFrance: Really weird career story I've got. So I graduated college now about four and a half years ago. I majored in public relations in college, which I was very much like I did marketing and that went through the business school. Then I was like, I really didn't like statistics and accounting. So then I went over to the PR major because I went through a journalism school and I've always been a pretty avid reader and writer. I've always loved writing. I've always kind of had a talent in writing. So when I saw that that was a major I could do or I was basically taught just how to write really well into a certain kind of format. So I. I graduated four years ago in my last year of college. I was actually a division one gymnast through college, had a really tough career the very last year. I retired for medical reasons. And then, you know, being someone who is used to training 20 hours a week on top of regular school, all that free time, I kind of got me. So I also immediately just went into like a jolting panic and I was like, I must get a job right now. So in college, I actually had a part-time job with a small marketing agency where I was running social media for all of our clients. That's really where I got my start was in in the social media side. And I think I just always been attracted to the ability to bring people together around a certain idea by using content, by using the combination of visual and writing. And it kind of just worked for my skill set from there. I was then hired full time on that agency and thrown directly into marketing coordinator position. Actually, the girl who trained me was there for two weeks and she put her two weeks in the same way that I started. So she trained me on everything marketing as quickly as one could be trained and then kind of left me. So I had about five different clients who were all e-commerce clients, and I was running all of their email marketing, content marketing, and social media marketing. So even though I had a team of freelancers from pretty much day one of my career, I was just kind of like thrown into e-commerce and like, here, go figure it out for our clients because we're not sure what we're doing. From there, then I ended up at another e-commerce platform, a really small one, but I spent two years there and I came in and there was basically no marketing done. So I was the second marketing hire there and they had no content marketing or anything. And they were really the target market for that company was very small, single entrepreneurs or starting a store. And I basically built up the blog from day one to when I left and I was started, as social media manager left as content manager again, just getting back into this idea of I could always really relate to an entrepreneur mindset. I can always really relate to someone wanting to chase a dream that is a little bit off the cuff and crazy. My parents weren't super stoked about me going straight to the startup world right after college and so being able to just take my crew in a direction where I knew that my way of thinking and my way of pulling together words could then impact somebody else to make their dream. So in those kind of two experiences, I found really quickly, like, this is what I'm good at and what I'm passionate about. And for me, that's an really important combination is I have to be very passionate about my work or I get very in my head really quickly. So I spent two years there and then I went to ChurnBuster. That's where I was right before Shopify. And I spent two years at ChurnBuster. And that's where, like a lot of my kind of marketing career ness came together in this really magical way. We spent about nine months marketing specifically to B2B SaaS companies and I was the first marketing hire, the second hire of the entire company and we basically had to build up. Again, I went into what I knew. I knew that content worked. I was trained in inbound marketing, so I built up the entire kind of content machine at ChurnBuster. It was a product that needed a lot of education, so content made sense. But about six months in, we did an integration with ReCharge and then all of a sudden we did a webinar with ReCharge. And I'm sure a lot of marketers kind of know this experience, but you're kind of like grinding and you're doing all these campaigns. You're getting little wins, little wins, and then you do something and it just clicks. And that was this webinar with ReCharge. And it was the first campaign we had ever done were like we had fifty leads right after that, that webinar. And it was like, oh, and for the whole company, we just had this moment of like, oh, we're selling to the wrong people. Like this product is actually it's much easier understood and needed by DTC companies, so we made this one hundred and eighty degree pivot on our market two weeks before my wedding. I created this email course for you to see Let It Go while I was at my wedding and honeymoon because that's how I work. Just kind of a crazy marketer. So we did all of that. Oh, sorry.

Kristen LaFrance: Before I keep going. David, can you hear me OK? Yeah. OK, hold on. Can you hear me better now?

David Hoos: It sounds the same.

Kristen LaFrance: Ok, sorry, I just saw my mike was like not on and I freaked out because this happened before, like.

Kristen LaFrance: And rescue, we are doing that, and so we made this 180-degree pivot into the DTC community and basically at that point my job was OK, Kristen, go figure out what this community needs, what they're talking about in terms of retention, because that's what our tool really solved and how you can kind of add to the community and market this tool to them, because we need to understand who these merchants are and what they actually need. So I spent my last year and a half a year in Boston doing that. That's where I got my start in podcasting. It was about, I think, a year and some months into my role at our investor. And when I first started, my boss, Matt Goldman, they had been in a podcast world before. They had said, I think a podcast might be a cool thing to do. Would you ever want to do it? And I'm pretty sure I like quite literally laughed at him in the face. And I was like, no, that's just not what I do. Like, I stay behind the computer. I take the words, nobody knows who I am. That's my comfort zone. But eventually about that year and some some months later, we came around to this idea where I was looking at the community and I was finally writing and I was talking to people and it just became so clear that that retention was something that was so difficult to just kind of write about, because it's not like the acquisition where you can see everything on the outside. So you're having to get into these conversations with people to really understand how companies are thinking about it. And I just had this aha moment where I was like, oh, we got to do the podcast now.

And so a year after I had a laughter, the face of my boss saying, hey, you should do a podcast. I came back and I was like, hey, we should do a podcast. So that's we're playing for keeps him from playing for Keeps was a show completely about to see our attention. We ran for two incredible seasons. It was such a wonderful show. It was so amazing that Sprey really got to kind of connect with everybody in the days to see community. I kind of got the namesake, the mayor of D to see Twitter during that time. And once those two seasons started coming to a close, then I ended up moving on to Shopify. And that has been a crazy right finish up by now since July. And basically resilient retail was already kind of an idea they had in the bank. It was going to be a series of virtual events. Harley was going to host it, which just like, if you can imagine showing up to work on day one and you're like, hey, I'm here. And my boss now, Matt Nelson was like, oh, hey, here's the project, by the way, you're taking over for Harley. So kind of like a crazy little world that I got thrown into. But yes, I've been here since July and resilient retailers just recently launched this fall, which is our brand new podcast that is hosted by me. And yeah, that is my weird little bumpy career story, which is a lot of, I think, defined by being thrown into crazy things and just figuring it out as I go.

Nice. Are there any sort of through lines or like lessons you feel like kind of the big takeaways from being thrown into that and having to adapt any sort of big. I don't know things that maybe looking back, you would have given advice to your younger self about, you know, getting where you are now.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing I've learned again and again, and I learn it almost every week still as we're going through this new podcast is like it's OK not to know what you're doing and it's OK to be a beginner in a lot of facets. It's actually a really big benefit to be a beginner. And you have all these kind of fresh perspectives. You haven't been taught by industry standards, are you don't know the benchmarks. And so going into a project where you kind of have no idea what you're doing is obviously so terrifying. And for me, as a perfectionist and a control freak, I really didn't like it. But what I found again and again is that if I just go in with a mindset of, well, I'm just going to learn and I'm going to try to do the best I can for the people that in the end I am serving, then I'm going to be OK. At least if I'm going into the right intentions, I'm going to be OK. So I've always said this. If I could go back like five years to myself, I would just say, like, you know what? You actually have a really smart, beautiful brain and you can trust it even if you don't know what you're doing. And it's OK to learn in public and it's OK to fail in public and to keep learning in public. And also, I think one of the biggest things for me, I also have a lot of social anxiety that I work through a lot in this community is basically brought me out of my shell into becoming a podcast host. When I talk to, like my high school friends or my mom, they're all like, who are how did this happen? Like, I was just never somebody that this would have happened to. And I think it's just that I hit a point in my career where I just decided, you know, I'm just going to reach out.

Orndorff, when I was a young content marketer, was kind of like my idol, and one day I was just like, I'm just going to message him on Twitter. And now he and I are really close and we can talk and I can Pincham questions and he's like, shouted me out for my work before I've gotten to interview him. So I think the biggest lessons I've learned through all of that are, one, not being so afraid of being new and unknown in something, because if you go in with the right intentions and I'm like an avid, like, I will take in as much information as possible. I am able to do those things. And then secondly, like just reaching out to people and leaning on community and talking to other people because it's such a cliche, but that that phrase, like a rising tide lifts all ships is something that I've seen again and again in my career, that as I help other people or I reach out to other people, it seems we all kind of rise up together. And that, to me, has been the most beautiful thing about kind of the community, the Twitter community we found, which led me right into where I'm at, which is a crazy point in my career.

That's awesome. So what do you feel like? You know, I think you're in more of a strictly to see world prior to going to Shopify. But I mean, Shopify is kind of known for the DC side of things.

But of all things, you're focusing on the retail side, which I don't know if a lot of people initially think, oh, Shopify in retail.

So talk a little bit more about kind of what drew you to that in particular and just go in whatever direction with that.

Yeah, for sure. It it was a little bit of a weird decision. And when I was trying to decide what I was going to do next, I had options and some of those options were to stay very strictly in the C space. I think I have this almost desire to be uncomfortable, even though it seems like I don't normally like it on surface level. You look at my career like just talking through it. I like to be thrown into things that I knew that I don't know what I'm doing. And so when Matt Nelson reached out to me and said, hey, I have this project and I'm building this retail team, at first I was just like, oh, this is my thing. And C is kind of a. retail. But then the more I thought about it, the more I looked at it one day to see is not like a.. Retail at all. A lot of brands are going into retail and vice versa. And a lot of what we do indeed see is taken from the retail presence. It's taken from how commerce was done in person before. And we're just trying to create it online. And and so then I saw this opportunity to just you know, I went from B2B, SAS to to see and I found so many cool things along the way of transcending to industries that I just thought this was kind of the perfect rounding out of my my career in this moment was, if I can understand both the D.C. side and help people in the e-commerce side and also understand the physical retail one on one in a store, how you design a space, how you go about creating kind of this omni channel presence that I can be of assistance to more and more entrepreneurs and I can help more people.

And again, going back to that idea that I always just want to be helping people and I want whatever I'm doing to help somebody find their dream. And really looking at the retail space this year has been twenty twenty has been a complete shit show for everybody. But you imagine for a brick and mortar merchant who's never had to think about e-commerce before, who probably doesn't even know what a C means, and they're having to enter this whole world, which, like you and I know, e-commerce is the furthest thing from being simple. That's why there are so many people like me just blabbing our mouths off about how to do it better, that I just saw this opportunity to take what I had learned and the D to see space and bring it to these merchants and also learn myself about their site, because then I could bring that back over to the community and it almost just felt like this kind of perfect storm of like, you know, when you get those gut feelings that you're just like, oh, this is it. Like I remember I was like physically sweating and like when I was talking to Matt and like when I was talking to my husband, like my heart was racing and I was just like, this is something I really care about, like these merchants, you know? And then from a very strictly marketing perspective, I went and I did my due diligence and said, OK, if I'm going to be creating content for retail merchants, what what am I up against? What am I competing against? And I did all that background research and found really quickly that there was this massive hole in content where there's all of these podcasts for e commerce and all these membership sites and blogs and all of this.

And there's just not all that much that's focused on brick and mortar retailers. And even we talk about e-commerce on the podcast more than even just the strict brick and mortar because of the pandemic. But there's not something that frames it for them in a way that they can really understand. So all that coming together, my husband, also my husband and I also have this really weird dream of like opening up a cafe one day. So all these things kind of came together in this perfect. I've always wanted to work for Shopify, Shopify kind of is the dream for someone like me who wants to help entrepreneurs. That's the entire mission of the company. And combined with I get to kind of start at the ground level, the point of sale system is new a Shopify. So we're building everything up right now. And all of this stuff I get to learn with my guests and also bring my expertise to it. It was just kind of a no brainer at that point where I was like, this is this is the next step in my career. It felt like the big step that I was really looking for.

That's awesome. What do you think? Ah, I mean, I don't really see what you're saying with there are definitely some similarities between income and retail. But what do you what are some of the things I think that you've found so far that. I guess maybe you're more in common than people think at face value.

Yeah, it's it's actually surprising and it's a trend that I've seen throughout my entire career. A lot of what I wrote about dissy, customer retention was based on what I wrote about SAS customer retention. And it just these theories kept pulling over and pulling over. And yet the framing needed to be different. And the examples are different in the way it's executed is different. But the same happened going from deceiving into retail. I think the biggest things are kind of the two of the things I have said most often and to see, which is one, the customer experience is the most important thing of all time. And two, it's not always about quantitative data. And those two things I keep hearing again and again from these merchants is, you know, stores are focused 100 percent on building a shopping experience, especially you think about like a boutique retail store in the streets of a small town. USA, like their entire purpose is to be there for the community. They think about how they design their store, how they do the layout, how where the cash registers start, cash registers, cash registers sit. You got like a real Christian audio there. All these things they think about when someone walks into my store, is the experience good enough to get them to buy something? And then when they leave, are they going to come back next time they walk by my store? So these are really the fundamentals that retail thinks about. The data has kind of quickly taken online and said, OK, we're going to put our stuff online.

But a lot of what I've worked with brands on is building that experience is building. OK, think of your online store as a store. If someone were to walk into your online store, what is that experience like?

And so I think that is the biggest similarity I've seen between the two kind of industries is at the end of the day, how the customer experiences your brand in your space, in your shop, in your product is the most important thing. And then what I said secondary is that quantitative data is not always the end all be all.

And indeed, see, we love we love data. We love our metrics. You can measure almost anything. There's even arguments about how to measure it. Right, how to measure it wrong. And we make almost all of our marketing decisions and retention decisions and product decisions on that data. But a lot of times what brands are missing is that qualitative data. It's the conversations with customers. It's the one on one dialogue. It's really understanding who am I selling to on a deeper level than the numbers on the other side of the computer. And retail has this advantage, which I keep talking to these merchants about, that when somebody walks into your store and is looking around and trying on clothes or whatever it is, you're constantly gathering qualitative data.

So you see the strength in the stores is often less about quantitative data, more about what they know about their customers, what they know about the community, what people are telling them when they come in. I had an interview with Steph, the poster. She owns a really small retailer in Toronto. And she was talking about, you know, a lot of times people know the shop dog better than they know me and I know their dog better than I know them. But they come in to, like, have the dog read our dog. And it was just this beautiful reminder that when you're doing business, whether it's online or offline, at the end of the day, the humans are what decide your fate. And so remembering to look at qualitative data alongside the quantitative data that is so important is just it's what separates what it's what makes, you know, a J.Crew versus a Mac Welden is you see the personalization, you see the understanding of people. And those two things have been very not necessarily surprising, but really, I guess almost like heartwarming to see that DTC came from trying to take an in-person shopping experience and put it online. And the kind of same lessons are passed between the two. And if anything, do the see can learn a lot from retail. Retail can obviously learn a lot from DC because they're all having to go into e-commerce. But there's two lessons of engaging customers and then not thinking about engaging customers, creating a good customer experience and not thinking just on quantitative data have been the two big lessons that every time I talk to somebody, it comes up again and again and again, and it just becomes very clear that commerce is meant to be about the human to human interaction, no matter where it's happening.

Definitely. I think I've seen that to customer experience is huge. And, you know, going back to the qualitative stuff, I think that's where I think I've seen a big shift towards Brand or at least maybe a rebalancing back out. I think numbers are good, but I think for a while there was just an emphasis like only on the numbers, like data only. And now I think it's maybe leveling back out. So it's, you know, yes, we should have some. Quantitative information, but we should also have some qualitative and we need to make sure that they're in sync and they're talking to each other. Yeah, and we're not just like throwing one out for the sake of the other one. Yeah, exactly. That's awesome. Well, are there any other sort of, I guess, big lessons or convictions that you've developed over the course of your career that you feel like would help merchants out there today?

Yeah, I think and this is something that I think a lot of people have heard me say before, but it's something that I haven't talked about recently, especially on in a public forum, which is this statement that I kind of pulled out of a lot of playing for keeps episodes, which is customers before metrics. And it's what we're talking about. What you're saying is this finding a balance between the qualitative and quantitative. What I mean by customers before metrics is not that one is necessarily better than the other, but your focus has to start at one before it can start at the other. So like you're saying, we had this whole kind of boom of data, see where we saw these growth at all costs, throw money at the problem, keep chasing the numbers, keep chasing the release on ads. Don't really think about retention. Sure, we've got a community, but like, are they spending money on all of these things? Go look at the stories about other voices in Casper. In a way, all of these things we're seeing is that when you just chase the numbers and you kind of forget about the actual human on the other side of the computer, who's making the purchase, who's receiving the product and then going to use the product in their normal life, then you can kind of be chasing the wrong things. And and that conviction is one that's become really, really strong for me. And I think even going throughout different industries, something that I just keep seeing. You know, we're seeing this idea of resilience versus resistance in retail, the J.

Crews, the Macy's, the Dillard's, the companies that are kind of struggling right now have been so resistant to change for so many years they haven't wanted to do online. They thought of it as a kind of a strategy that was a potential they could do one day. But like, we can still kind of dictate how our customers shop versus the resilient ones who are saying, OK, this is how our customers are shopping now. They want they want curbside pickup. They want local delivery on the DC side. They want us to stand for a mission. They want to see a brand. They want to connect. They want to know who the founder is. They want to know where our money is going, where profits are going, what our cash flow is like. These are all things that customers now want to know. And the resilient retailers, both in the online and offline, are the ones who say, OK, we hear you, we hear our community because we're talking to you. And so it's it's this kind of overall conviction that, yes, data will tell you a lot of times whether this button or that button was a better option, but it might not actually tell you what your customers care about or when they put on their sweatshirt from our voices what it makes them feel like. And at the end of the day, that's going to be your customers decide your success. Your customers are the ones buying and buying again and making you money.

And we feel a lot of times as you to see businesses kind of like we're in control of the experience. We're trying to push our customers a certain way or have them do some certain action. But sometimes you just have to kind of take a step back and say, OK, but let's let our community and let our customers dictate how we continue to grow, because then we know we'll grow in a profitable way, a sustainable way, because we're actually serving humans with what they need and what they want. And that's something that I just it no matter how many brands I talked to, the ones that are extremely successful that I posted on my Instagram and a random friend is like, oh, I love their shirts. It's always the ones that are focusing on community first and focusing on customers first and then letting the metrics follow. It's really this idea of if you serve people, you serve the people who want to be served by your products and your brand. The metrics you're seeking out are going to follow. The repeat purchase rate is going to go up, your acquisition costs are going to go down because you're understanding how to talk to people, how to sell to them, how to give them value, and then how to bring them back again and again. So I think that's that's my biggest conviction.

And I think it summarizes just about like every little lesson that I have here and there into the one thing that is, no matter what channel you're looking at, no matter what content you're looking at, no matter if it's ads or unboxing or website conversion rate, making sure you step into the foot of your customer or have them actually just tell you straight up how they think about it by talking to them and focusing on them first so that everything else that follows is an iteration of that.

Right. I mean, basically leaning much more towards like authentic, organic, real relationships rather than trying to and. Junior, a bunch of impersonal numbers, which I think sometimes that the data side can go too far into, like we're going to engineer success and it's like maybe success is just being like that small town shop owner who just knows every one of his customers or her customers and can like, you know, pull things off the shelf. That's a good fit for them and that their reputation is really dependent on the quality of that experience that they give day in and day out.

Yeah, it's really it's really about going back to what marketing and sales and commerce always was supposed to be about, which was less so starting with a product and then trying to kind of force it into customers is more starting with a customer need and coming up with a product that solves it and solving the customer. And that's what you think about Main Street in one hundred, two hundred years ago. That's what this was all about.

People were going walking. They knew who was selling the core and they knew who sold the bread. They knew who did this and that. They knew how they grew up, where they grew up, where they lived, what their family was like. It's always been the basis of commerce, but being online, it became really easy to do it the opposite way. Right. There were what some people call the golden years of see, which I completely disagree that those were the golden years was you could pay Facebook five dollars and get a ten dollar customer really quickly. And so that led the industry to kind of go in the direction of growth at all cost. And hey, we came up with this product. And so now let's find a way to get it in front of customers versus, hey, we felt a pain point from a customer or even from a personal person. Just thinking about my conversation with John Jonathan, the founder of Mons, which was like a year and a half ago. But I will always remember his story of how he was walking around a department store and going, like, I can't find the same underwear again and again.

And the ones that I find, like, they're kind of uncomfortable and they don't fit and they don't feel like me. And he created me out of that actual human need versus saying, you know, I think the world needs some like some printed underwear. And then we're going to go figure out who we sell it to. And and just that lesson of getting back to the heart of commerce and why we sell things to people I think is really important. And you're seeing kind of this you know, there's a lot of bad stuff that's happened this year, but twenty twenty has woken everybody up to the fact that we have to shift back. We have to get back to human connection because we all really, really need it right now. And consumers have more power than ever. And they are with their wallets, deciding how our how our societies and cultures are moving forward. And the data is proving that it's about local shopping, it's about independent businesses. It's about knowing where your money goes.

Yes, there are things like Bagis that I'm probably just going to go to my local grocery store and buy the Ziploc bags I bought for years.

But now when I'm looking for something like sweatpants, I'm thinking about, OK, but are there micro plastics in the sweatpants that I'm buying? And can I buy from a company who that money is going to help an actual entrepreneur versus a very large corporation. And so these human human connections are just they're just being continually blown up in importance. And we'll I think we'll just keep seeing it in the twenty twenty one. I don't think this is a short trend. I think this is a lifelong change in commerce, that consumers just want more connection from people. So always getting back to the heart of why are we doing, what are we doing? Why are we selling the products we do? And what are they what are they actually truly giving our customers? Because a lot of times, like a new pair of leggings, is not about buying a new pair of leggings. It's about buying a new version of yourself that you feel strong and athletic and fit to go to a new spin class. All of these things are really important to think about. So always coming back to this idea in everything you're doing, every decision frame it around, you know, are we thinking about our customers or are we thinking about our metrics?

Definitely well, I think, like one thing that I like to harp on is optimizing for the long term rather than just the short term, and I see some alignment there between, you know, when you're just trying to optimize for the short term, you are going to look more at all the all the metrics and just try to, like, pour cash into something that you think might, you know, engineer some growth.

But ultimately, if you're thinking long term, you're going to think more about relationships, things that are harder to build, but that withstand the test of time a little bit better.

Yeah, yeah. I think Outdoor Voices is one of my favorite examples of this. I'm I've been very publicly in support of outdoor voices. I think 90 percent of my closet is outdoor voices, clothes. I love the company. I love their mission. I love their products.

But we saw I think it was like last year sometime or early this year, we saw this report come out that they were just hemorrhaging cash and things are not looking good and they were not profitable. And a lot of it came down to when you really looked at it. Our voices had a really good community on the surface, but they hadn't really thought about the long game because they built a community within a demographic that couldn't afford their prices at a repeat purchase rate.

So they were thinking about what is the quick win here? And the quick win was get GenZE to buy our products, to post on Instagram, to post on tech, talk, to be in love with the leggings. We've got the cool color block. But then it kind of all came crashing down at one point, even opening a store in Soho.

And all of these really big cities was a quick win, but maybe not so much a long term when I remember when I was trying to analyze that situation because again, I love the brand. And so seeing that those numbers was like, oh, I've really touted them as this retention thing before. And it came down to they were focused on the short term ones. They were focused on getting the Instagram posts and getting the community that looked good and getting the stores in New York where it felt like just because it's New York, that was the right place.

But if it was me, I would have thought more tactically about that. Community they were building was mostly college aged women and their leggings are almost one hundred dollars.

And at that price, you're probably getting into the argument of do I go with this new brand out or voices? Do I go with Lululemon, who I know are very sturdy leggings, their twenty dollars more. And so they didn't really balance the two. They didn't think about, you know, could a store in Boulder, Colorado have actually done better? Because those are the people that are buying their clothes on repeat versus Soho because it seemed better on a press press stage. And again, these are things I'm speculating. I don't know the ins and outs of the company, but it's what we see a lot to see is focusing on those longer term ones that are harder to get. And you don't get as exciting like press coverage in your roller coaster as not so much like this. It's just kind of like a steady, steady climb. It's a hard decision to make, but oftentimes it's the right decision is, you know, if you want your business to be around in three to five years and you don't want to still be flying by the seat of your pants, then you've got to kind of do the hard work at the beginning, which is the long term ones, letting things simmer, really finding the right audience, talking to them, making sure they can afford to repeat purchases and all those things that in five years will make your business successful. But as an entrepreneur, you just got to look and say, what is my goal? Is my goal to build fast and hard and sell in a year? Or is my goal to create a business that I care more about than anybody else will? So I'm going to keep winning and we're going to be around in ten years.

Definitely. I think that's a great place to stop. I think this is just been an awesome episode. Awesome interview. Thanks so much for coming on the show. And I think there's going to be a lot of great takeaways for our audience.

Of course. Thank you so much for having me. This is yeah, I know I talked a lot, but this is it's so fun to be on the opposite side of the break, so.

Sure. Well, for people who aren't familiar with you, I don't know how that's possible. But if there are people who are listening who aren't familiar with you, what's the best way for them to find you online and catch up?

Yeah, I'm super active on Twitter. As I mentioned, I've been dubbed the mayor of DC Twitter, which still boggles my mind that that happened. I'm on Twitter at KD LaFrance LaFrance spelled just like LA France, like the country. And then my podcast is Resilient Retail. If you search it, you will find my face in a big red icon on any of the podcasting platforms or YouTube.

Awesome. Well, thanks again and look forward to sharing this with people now. Thank you so much, David. Thank you.