Val Geisler

November 12, 2020

In this episode, we talk about how Val became the email marketing Jedi that she is today. We discuss why she says email is far from dead and discuss her thoughts around balancing offers in email campaigns with branding building campaigns.


David Hoos: Hey, everyone, this is David Hoos, and you're listening to the Modern Attention podcast, where I bring together data, see marketers and other experts to tell their stories about personal, professional, and brand. Hope you enjoy this episode. In today's episode, I had the great opportunity to talk with Val Geisler of Fix My Churn. Our conversation covered a lot of ground and I'm really excited to share this one with you. That was really a Jedi when it comes to email marketing strategy for DTC brands. And she just shared so much great advice in this episode. So you won't want to miss it. We can just hop right into it. One of the things that I realized is that I read a lot of your email stuff. I've seen your stuff on social media, but I don't know a lot about how you got into email and how that became kind of your area of expertise. Can you talk a little bit about your back story?

Val Geisler: Yeah, I mean, I didn't use the email like the email tells me. It's true, though. And actually, it's kind of the running joke in the email community is that none of us like there's no degree in email marketing, you know, like nobody meant to be an email. It typically is something that falls in your lap and you either love it or you do it and learn to love it. And so for me, it was. Kind of goes back, I've been running a business online for over a decade, and I started out as a virtual assistant and project manager for other brands, most of them actually commerce. And then I got into kind of that customer onboarding experience. What what is it like? Because I was project managing. And so my real focus was like, what is it feel like to work with this business? And then that translated into what does it feel like to be a customer of this business? And so I would work on things for them like. Building some canned responses for customer support tickets that were sounded like a human and, you know, and I worked also with a fair number of graphic designers who became website builders, they would build websites for coaches and online personalities. And they were all like, I got into this to design websites, not to deal with people. And so I worked for a while with that, that those kind of like service-based businesses on how they on board their own clients. When I was doing that, I was running my own business and sending emails for my own purposes to build my community. And the ISP that I was working with was kind of new at the time. And I had that like I don't love the way I was onboarded it into this brand new ESP and I also know that they're like trying to make things work as a small team. And so. Because I had to reach out to support a lot, I got I built a relationship with a person there who we knew each other and knew what we knew what I did. And so I sent a proposal of two like, hey, let me help you shore up your customer onboarding. And they came back with. That's cool, but we really need help with creating content and we've read a lot of your blog posts and love them and where you come, the marketing person at our company. And so I was the first marketing hire at this small growing ASP, which is now very big. And so I've learned through being inside of an ASP, being inside of a service provider and not just operating our own email because I built our email campaigns from the ground up, but also seeing how all these other brands were operating their email. So then when I left and started freelancing after I was in house, I. Was working on kind of general marketing projects, I was a freelancer taking whatever job I could get and but I kept finding myself drawn to it. It was so it was like I loved it and I knew a lot about it from being in-house and my own experience. And it was the thing that when I thought about what kind of webinars I would want to watch or what education I wanted to pursue, it always came down to things that were email centered. So, yeah, I mean, I kind of stumbled into it in that way, that through a very direct sense of working at an ISP. But it certainly wasn't my intention and it was like I wanted to do it a six week contract and then I ended up there for a year and a half. So and then it's from there, like. I could have been a copywriter, I could have been a generalist marketer, I could have gone down the SEO route of a lot of things with the experience that I had. And I just kept getting drawn to email. And so that's where I focused my attention was on email from like a self-education standpoint. I mean, that's something that I take very seriously, is like you have to continue to educate yourself on the industry and especially something that changes so often. Like, you know, something I'm not really good at is design and development. And so I quite often take certification trainings in those areas. I don't talk about that a lot because I don't want people to think I'm a developer, emailed us because that's a very special person. But yeah, I think it's an important thing to understand, to know fully.

David Hoos: Yeah, well, you got the benefit of being at an ESP, so you got to see like, what are people doing that's working well, what's not working well, but you get to see a problem on a larger scale.

Val Geisler: Yeah, it was interesting because we had clients that had small lists with a couple of thousand people and we had clients that had over multiple hundreds of thousands of people and all different levels of segmentation and different kinds of onboarding sequences and post purchase funnels and all those things that even if we weren't doing them from the emails we were sending out to see what these other brands were doing. And it was it was just like a crash course education. It was great.

David Hoos: It's awesome. What do you say to the people? Because it seems like every year or two there's something that's like emails dead. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you probably don't think that. But why do you think that people keep on saying that? And what would you say to them?

Val Geisler: So, yeah, that email is dead. I think if you I feel like I wrote about this a couple of years ago, see if if you Google it, you'll find articles that go way back like the early two thousands, I think is kind of when it started the email was that basically as soon as email was born, it was dead. And but I think that it does go through phases of of interest and of importance. As far as like the way marketers focus, I know that a lot of times I will talk to brands as in a kind of. Proposal process, and then they'll say something along the lines of like, this is great and we do want to work on this project, but we have some other things we want to focus on right now and and then we'll get to it. Emails definitely like the thing, though, is always we'll get to that eventually. And there's so much opportunity. And so I don't think that it's ever. No, it's not dead, but it's not a shiny object. And I think that that's the real thing about it, is that. It's not a fun like Facebook ad that you can throw up and see results from and immediately I mean, you can actually see results from email and pretty immediately, but it's just not it doesn't have the massive numbers and the shiny stuff behind it. It's also not like the new fun things. I mean, it's been around forever. So I guess this is the new fun thing. And but estimate's isn't trying to kill email and email isn't trying to kill off a massive. Pit them against each other, but, yeah, I think it's just not as shiny as other things.

David Hoos: Yeah, now I think that makes a lot of sense, and I. Yeah, one thing that's interesting to me is. Like we've talked to DTC brands in the past where like they never got around to even bothering to send out emails on a regular basis except for like once a month, like they have like a very specific idea in their mind of like what a brand email's supposed to be. And it's like a newsletter or something. And it's like, well, your a DTC brand, like probably be sending far more than you are and be doing a lot more and growing your brand a lot more of them than you realize.

Val Geisler: And also who says like what an email should look like and what it should be like that I feel like that's what's fun and maybe also intimidating to people about email is that it doesn't have to be one specific thing. And the kind of common email answer is it depends. Let's test it. I mean, that that could be the answer to every question somebody throws me about email. Should we have a hamburger button inside of our emails or a menu of look like a website? It depends. You have to test it and you have to see what works for your audience. And that's where it's not shiny because you there is no formula for it. And if you're a fitness apparel brand, should you do exactly what Reebok and Nike are doing? Maybe, maybe not. And so there's no, like, set way to do it. There are some like I was just I call them better practices because they're not like the best practice because everybody's business is different. So there are some other practices like, yeah, maybe you should probably spend more than once a month and more often than when you're running a sale, then that it positions your brand in the customer's mind in a certain way. But those are just better practices and you have to test them against your audience and your brand and the values of the combination of those two.

David Hoos: Right, you have more of kind of experimental mindset where you're thinking, OK, here's something I've observed. Here's what I think is going to work with our audience. Now, let's see if I'm right or wrong. And you might find out, oh, actually, this doesn't work. Or actually, it does, you know, and it's wildly successful. But just blindly copying really just doesn't pan out.

Val Geisler: Yeah. I mean, it's it's kind of a mix of being like a scientist and the mechanic at the same time, because, like, mechanics go in and they see what's not working and they know, like, OK, well, I need this part or this person and this is how I fix it. And done so there's that element to email like, OK, well, this is what's broken in here. We'll fix that. But there's also the scientist part of it where you have to, like, test your hypotheses. You have to come up with an idea and be willing to fail and know that that could be wrong and then test it and typically test again and then draw conclusions based on the data, not based on whatever you thought might happen. Because quite often when I'm running, I actually do call them animal experiments. When I present after I do an audit of a brand's emails and present a list of here are the opportunities and we call them here. These are the email experiments we want to run. And when I'm sharing that, I always start with like this could be this could be something that turns out to be nothing. But I want to run the experiment because then we know it's all just data, it's all information. And a failed campaign is not a failure in my mind, because it's just more information and it tells us what to not do again.

David Hoos: Yeah, for sure. Well, that makes perfect. I mean, same thing when I was in the CRO world. I mean, that's exactly the sort of attitude we had towards things. We call them winners or learners, you know, like even the failed tests. It was still something where we developed insights about our audience from that.

Val Geisler: So, yeah, I mean, it does inform, like. If you don't if you don't take it as information, then, yeah, it's a it's a loss or a failure, but it's only a failure if you don't learn anything from it.

David Hoos: So, yeah, that's great. Well, here's another question. Yeah. When you're when you're talking to people, what do you feel like is. You know, do you see more brands that are trying to use email just to like. Clothes sales. Here is an email for a product and here's the CTA to go shop now, or do you think there's a place for more brand building stuff where it's, you know, you're talking about you're telling stories, things like that, or more education? When does it make sense to use one of those versus another, do you think?

Val Geisler: Yeah, it depends. Yeah, but no, truly, I believe in relationship building through email. First and foremost. Email is, if you think about it, the customer's inbox. Think about your own inbox. It's like it's kind of your digital home base. Like it's that place that either we're all like you're either checking it all the time or you have special times of the day reserve to check it. But it's kind of where you collect everything that is important to you for that day. So as brands, we are we have this gift from our customers to be welcomed into their digital home. And we have to treat that with the same respect that we would walking into someone's physical home. Where and this is where I talk a lot about the dinner party strategy, and basically it's like you don't invite someone to your house and throw a steak dinner in their face when they ring the doorbell, like there's there's things that we do. There's pleasantries and appetizers. And let me get you a glass of wine and those kinds of things that that build relationship. And they make the dinner meaningful. They make the meal meaningful because I can go get a meal anywhere. But it's about the people that are there that makes a difference. And and that's truly where those relationship building emails are important, is you have to you have to kind of set the scene for serving your meal, which is your product. So a lot of what we do in life cycle marketing is really about building the relationship. So it's about continuing to help them feel excited about their purchase they just made, especially right now, when and it probably is only going to get worse into the winter and Black Friday. And all of that is shipping times are longer than they have been historically. And so there's a huge opportunity post purchase to have an educational campaign that continues to remind them why they made the purchase, that they did get them excited about the product arriving at their home. Those that kind of messaging makes a huge difference. Even two or three emails makes a big difference versus spending money line. So I've just spent money and I look at my credit card bill and it's definitely gone, but I don't have a thing yet. And if all I'm getting is receipts, I start to feel like now I'm just a transaction. Right. And so when you can use emails to build relationships, then then you can sell more of your product because you've built the trust. And it's that like traditional marketing, like trust factor, I have to know who you are, which they do because they bought your product. But like, let's remind them and tell them a bit more. They have to like you, which probably means that you have to show a little bit that you care about them too, because all humans want is to be seen and heard. So show them that, show them that you see them and hear them and that they're not more than a credit card number. Right. And and then that trust factor is. Yeah, I trust that when I open these emails from you, I'm not just going to be asked to spend more money or to go to your website. I'm going to be given value in inside these emails and then I'm going to keep opening more. And then when you do ask for attention on a particular thing, I'm more likely to give it to you because I trust you at that point.

David Hoos: Do you think there's a. I know you're talking about sending maybe a few more emails before they get something physically in the mail, and then on the other hand, I think there's people who say, you know, you don't want to put too many emails in their inbox. How do you how do you think people should think about that tension between too many emails in their inbox versus sending them to right emails or a box or maybe quality versus quantity and that sort of stuff?

Val Geisler: Yeah. So my favorite cadence as someone who signed up to a lot of emails and also like test buys a lot of stuff, just to get emails and see what happens is I. The. Deliver the transactional emails, make sure that they get what they need. That shows that they the transaction is complete and all of that. And then I would actually wait an entire day before sending another email. But I do think that you need some kind of post-purchase, pre-delivery sequence. That email, if it's a first purchase, should be some kind of welcome from the founder. I love a link to a video that the founder made. It can be super casual. It does not have to be highly stylized and branded and all of those things, it can just be the founder talking and saying why they started the brand, why it matters what they know about the customers and what what they've heard over and over again, the problem that they're solving and or it can be a written letter. It doesn't have to be anything really special or just a an acknowledgement from somebody at the company, ideally a founder and CEO. If there isn't a founder available who can speak to the fact that they're are new here and this is their first purchase, we appreciate you and we value you beyond your credit card number. And then, you know, there's a world of opportunity beyond that in that it depends on how many products are in your product line, what what types of products those are, because you can have very customized based on type of products like if you carry multiple different I ordered from a make up brand recently. And I mean, obviously the make up brands have hundreds of products, but they were able to custom they sent me an email that was about a particular product that I bought. It's called a multi stick. So it does like lipstick and blush and apparently eye shadow as well. But that's something like they they taught me about the product that I had just purchased before it arrived. And maybe you can't get that granular with with it. Maybe you want to get more it go more broad. And there's actually another makeup brand was called Grav Cosmetics. They do if I could give back program. And so they instead of focusing on particular products, they send emails, post purchase about the people that they're impacting with who you have just contributed to because you made a purchase and so who that money is going to. And they show real people. And this is their name and this is their story. And thank you for contributing to better life. So there's there's all kinds of ways you can do it, depending on who you're what your brand is and what you're selling. And if you do have a standout product like that stick and somebody purchases it, having that acknowledgement of that purchase, being in there in their order and making sure that they get messaging based on that superimportant.

David Hoos: Yeah. I guess it also helps you stand out from a you know, there are some very large e-commerce brands. No name is being dropped here, but like they have huge libraries of products. Everything is very transactional. They're selling commodities. And so if you are a smaller brand, you're an incumbent brand, like showing more of the people behind it. The you know, oh, here's the people that you're benefiting. Here are the people that are helping to make it like, oh, this is why I might be spending a little bit more to work with the smaller brand than to go with, you know, the major brand out there that can give me same day shopping or whatever.

Val Geisler: Yeah, and just that what does make you different, whether it's the formula of your if you're a food company, perhaps it's a particular formula that you use that is to speak to that whatever it is that makes you stand out is different. Maybe you employ former human trafficking victims or people who used to be in prison or whatever it is that makes you different. Talk about that with your customers, because they especially right now, we have so many choices. And like you said, we have same day delivery choices. And and so those things that make you different are the things that will help your customers connect with you. Sure to keep you around. Keep them around.

David Hoos: Well, here's another question. Would you approach a subscription brand differently than you would a non-subscription brand?

Val Geisler: Yeah, for sure. Actually was kind of prepping a thread, a Twitter threat on two packages I got this weekend at both orders or non-subscription brands, and it's just interesting that kind of combined between the package delivery and also the emails that I got between order and delivery. But the subscription that the non-subscription brands, so subscription brands are like kind of an easy win on email. You talk to your customers, you continue to show value. You remind them that when it's time to order, you talk about the upcoming order. Like I ordered my deodorant from the ordering company and they sent me this beautiful email that this is how often your order is getting ready to ship. Here's what's going to be inside of it, because I hate when I get an email that's like, hey, we're getting ready to ship your order and it doesn't say what it is I have to like then log into my dashboard. And that's so obnoxious. Like, I just want to know when I read the email, is this the order that I want? And I will log into my dashboard if I need to make changes, but it's really great. And so there are so many opportunities for email messaging and subscription brands for non subscription brands, though I think that there's still a big opportunity for messaging because you still have referral and affiliate programs, you still have repurchases, you still have other products potentially that you sell. You probably also have like blog content and ways for people to connect with your brand on a deeper level. So I don't think that you should rule out email as a non-subscription brand. And also I think there is a lot of non-subscription brands that can operate with a subscription if they put a little thought into what that might be. I mean, if Bombas can sell US stocks every single month, then there's a lot of opportunity in other areas that people just haven't explored.

David Hoos: Yeah, like refills or something like that for something that you have. And I was just following, Jeff, at Ugmonk and he just created this productivity like to do this sort of tool for your desk set up. And it has these cards that are consumable. So I was like, it's actually super smart because you're selling you the item. But then, you know, you have to go and get more cards on a regular basis to restock. So he's kind of building a subscription piece into his one-time purchase.

Val Geisler: Yeah. And then things like I was talking to someone the other day about like bra companies. Why are they not doing a subscription? Doesn't mean monthly. You can do quarterly. So like that is a garment that is worn on a daily basis and washed and it wears out and has elasticity and all those things that have to remain intact. And eventually, those things wear out no matter how good your garment is. So why not build in a quarterly subscription, not just not saying like, hey, your product is going to fail in three months, but also like maybe you want a different color or some people just like to refresh on things on a more regular basis than you might think. So it's worth testing a subscription if you don't have one and if there is some kind of opportunity in place. And maybe it's just like talking to people outside of your brand, where quite often you're so focused on, like, this is what we're doing and we can't really think outside of that. But talk to people and see, like, is there an opportunity for a subscription on this, you know, like a notebook? Why not have a new fresh notebook delivered to your house every single month, you know? Yeah. Those kinds of things make a difference.

David Hoos: Totally. Is there any, like, major mistake that you see a lot of DTC brands making with email, or is this by a lot? But is there a, you know, a big one that comes to mind?

Val Geisler: So there's kind of two extremes. Either not sending enough email, are like any email, and then sending too many. So I know that that's like the it depends and tested question at play, but. You know, there is a threshold both low and high for email, and I think any email marketer will tell you that. Once a month email or I've definitely sent it to a brand last week and I didn't even get like often confirmation. I think I signed up to their list. I have no e-mails from them. At all, and it's been I mean, it's only been a week, but I would expect to have two at least emails by now at the very bare minimum. And then the opposite end is like. Two or three a day. I've definitely tweeted about some brands that are doing that in my inbox and it's just like, OK, chill out a little bit, especially because I haven't even purchased or touched your website beyond signing up for your email list. So I think segmenting targeting people based on who they are, how they've interacted with your brand, how far they've gone, I think too many brands think an abandoned cart is segmenting and you have an abandoned cart, and so that's our other segment of people, I have shown interest, but there are other ways people show interest on your site and having messaging that's specific to those segments is really important. So you can do twice a day emails to the right segment and you can do no emails to the right segment. But if that's kind of your broad game plan, it's not a smart one.

David Hoos: Yeah, what kind of gets into, I think, personalization as a topic? I guess when you're segmenting your personalizing it to some degree, then there's also kind of when people talk about email, personalization is like, you know, bringing the person's first name in there or something like that. Do you have any thoughts around personalization and. Like how you want to how you try to define it and when it makes sense.

Val Geisler: Yeah, so first of all, if you are asking for information from your customers like if you're asking, say, your clothing brand and you want to ask them if they are more interested in the male category, a female category of clothes. If that's the way your brand operates and you want to identify that, or maybe they're interested in both, if you have that kind of checkbox situation and then you start to send all the emails to that person, that's a huge area of opportunity, is just go in and clean up those segments and the interest that they've already given you, because that's one level of personalization. It's just. Giving them the message, the emails and the information that they explicitly told you they're interested in, you know, using their name, I think where it's. It's 20, 20 now, it's not 20, 14, so if we can stop thinking that that equals personalization because even non email marketers get it. And also, if you're going to use names, let's make sure we're passing out first names and last names. People put all kinds of things in form fields and so you need to clean up your names a little bit if you're going to be pulling them in your emails so that all caps or first name, last name and a first name field, things like that. So you want to make sure that if you're doing it, you have the right information and then. Yeah, delivering the content that they specifically asked for. This is where our preference centers are really important. And this is another opportunity for a non-subscription brand to have a preference center and send campaigns that drive people to the preference center. One that I really love is a brand that ran a campaign. That was something like the email said, Happy Birthday, and then inside it was like, maybe, but we don't know because we don't know when your birthday is and if you could let us know when your birthday is, we'll send you a gift on your birthday or something on us or whatever your email. But so what that does is it drives people into a preference center where now I'm filling in my birthday and oh, what else is on this form while I'm here? I'll go ahead and check a few things or complete it. That might not be true of everybody. Some people might just fill in their birthday, but the likelihood of them continuing to fill things in when they're on a form page is pretty high and it's definitely higher than never sending them there in the first place. So running those kinds of campaigns that drive interest and I've seen brands do things like, are you a dog person or a cat person? Come tell us. And they're not a pet brand, but they have that in their preference center because then people are in there and they want to fill in the other fields that are empty because they again, people just want to be seen and heard and so they can check a box that helps them feel seen and heard. Then you can turn around and create campaigns and deliver information based on what they've completed in that center.

David Hoos: Well, that's super helpful then. Not basically wasting emails on people that are just going to be like, oh, that is totally not relevant for me.

Val Geisler: Right. So, yeah. And if they look after your cat person or dog person campaign, if they go in and they click their cat person, you can immediately send them an email with. Everyone on the teams, cats or like a cat gif or just something that acknowledges that you got their information and maybe your Cat People segment occasionally gets emails that have funny cat things versus funny dog things because they just relate to it more and. They might not remember having filled that out, but it subconsciously makes a huge difference.

David Hoos: Yeah, and you kind of building that community around your brand and that loyalty to your brand as well.

Val Geisler: Right. Because if you love your pet and you meet other people who do, too.

David Hoos: Yeah. Life. Well, I guess on the flip side of that, who are there any brands or is there a brand that you think is doing email really, really well? Other people should look to you.

Val Geisler: Yeah, for sure. There's a ton of brands that do really well on. And there are brands who do it really well and then occasionally have an email that's like, oh, that's not great. So we all are imperfect humans. One brand that I. Signed up for recently that I was really impressed with their kind of post-purchase flow with Parade. So the women's underwear brand and they do a wonderful job with their purchase emails. I felt like I was segmented out of their regular promotional emails until my product arrived. So there's certain things that they do that feel really special. Outdoor voices tend to have really good emails, Evelin does e-mail really well. Even though they're under fire for other things. One thing that I like the Everlane does in email. So, Outdoor Voices and Everlane both do one image only emails, which I understand why brands do it, because it makes it cohesive across the board and on the inbox side. But it's horrible from an accessibility standpoint. And so I encourage you that you are using one image only emails, meaning you have somebody design an image or a graphic and you plug that into your email and call it a day and send it. I would encourage you to figure out some more accessible ways to build your emails. It's going to mean building email, actually, instead of just dropping an image into it and hitting send. But it's better for your customers. It's better for your brand, is better for your inboxing, too. But one thing that Everlane does really well is occasionally on, it's always on a Sunday. So like after a product line has dropped and set that new product alert email that following Sunday there's a text-only email that's like a couple it's usually about two paragraphs and it's inline links to that product where they're talking about either how it was made or what people are saying or specific features the pockets in a skirt or something like that. But it's all just text and it's inline links where they're just linking words in the sentence to the product and it's just really cool because they don't see a lot of especially product based brands doing text and text-only emails. And it also stands out from all their other emails. I don't have to wait for it to load on my phone. I can just open the email and read a little bit about it and then click through to what I am interested in. So and there's like tons of other brands that are doing really well. Email. But yeah, I mean, I think that it's actually usually the small brands that are doing pretty well or like those kind of medium sized brands that have the ability to focus on the huge brands. Don't copy what they're doing because they're most of the time they're so big that they can't even see what's wrong with what they're doing. And I think those medium-sized brands and small brands are the ones that are doing really well because they're they have somebody focused on it. They see it as a powerful revenue channel that it is. And so they put a lot of care into it. So, yeah, there's a lot of brands that are doing it really well. Those are just a couple off the top of my head in my inbox.

David Hoos: Nice. You mentioned a couple of things in there that I thought were interesting, I'd be interested in digging a little deeper. Number one, you mentioned accessibility. So not like just, you know, bringing an image over and then also kind of texting, e-mails versus image emails. Can you talk a little bit about both of those and maybe where they overlap?

Val Geisler: Sure. So accessibility is huge from, you know, just so that you're you have a better reach inboxes prefer accessible email, so as far as the delivery of your emails goes in your inbox, the inboxes are looking for all text on images and a text to image ratio so that they're not delivering one image, only emails. A lot of them do deliver one image on the emails, but. If you are if that's all you're funding and your customers stop opening them because they don't have images displayed on for I mean, in my own inbox, I don't display images without my permission on those emails. And you can display images for a single email or for a brand. But even when there's somebody using a screen reader, they displaying an image with text on the image does them no good because they can't if there's no all text and quite often there's not they have no way of knowing what that implies about. And so that's where I think building emails where you have an image, it can have text on it, but to have that text repeated in some fashion, standing alone in a text box where if the images aren't displayed, someone can still consume the gut of the email, like think about what your emails look like if images are turned off. And is your message getting across or are you taking up space in their inbox, which also means you're taking up space in their day. And if all you're ever delivering is something that is there opening and it's nothing, they're going to stop opening. Yeah. So sorry. No, go ahead.

David Hoos: So you start with kind of the substance and then you can have the style kind of on top of that.

Val Geisler: Yeah, I think we everybody is so invested in their brand and we spend a lot of money on photography and imagery and branding. And so we want that to come first. But you have to remember that email is a message. It is a form of communication and. And messaging and communication are from the beginning of time, go back to words, so you have to have some kind of words involved and it can't just be on the image. Now, as far as Texas versus image emails, yeah, sorry, yeah, no, so there's it's a blend, right? So thinking about that kind of Everane strategy of, hey, we sent the image based emails and maybe in your case, hopefully in your case, you're adding more text around those images and at least all text, if nothing else. And so sending those campaigns and then maybe it's only to people who clicked but didn't purchase. But you can send like a text-based campaign. It feels more personal if it sounds like from Stephanie or whoever on your team, it's like a personal letter from somebody on the team recommending a particular thing or that that just creates that trust factor, too. Right? It's like you're not just trying to sell me on something. You're educating me. And the education can come in the form of images mixed with text or it can come in the form of just text. And this is another place where you have to test it. You have to see do those text driven emails get opened just as much as, if not more than our image based emails? And if so, let's keep sending those and test it on different segments. And then maybe that's your abandoned car campaign is not like, oh, looks like you forgot something because they probably didn't forget something. They probably. Know very well that that tab is still sitting open and their computer or on their phone, they just got distracted and haven't gotten back to it. So most people don't need a reminder of what sitting in their cart it's like, let's save the inbox basins and headspaces on their part or something that's more educational. Remind them to come back why they came there in the first place.

David Hoos: Sounds like like a common theme across all of this has been just have empathy for the consumer. Like what are they going to experience on the other end and kind of use that as a starting point?

Val Geisler: Yeah, I think that's something we have to remember, is that we're building brands and selling products so we can retire and live in Bali at a young age, but also to solve a problem that people have had. And typically it is us. We are the problem. We identified the problem, especially small brands. A lot of people are building a product because they like Jeff with Ugmonk he had a problem and solved it. And then you turn it into a product and selling it to people. And if he loses sight of that problem that he was trying to solve and the human element behind it, and then it just becomes like, now this is trading cash for goods like all that, then you're a drop-shopper, so you're not building relationships and there's a human being sitting on the other side of the device, placing the order that their name is on their credit card so that the sexual person who is giving you their money that they worked hard for and you want to acknowledge that and have you have that empathy and that human connection?

David Hoos: Totally. Well, I think we can probably stop there. This has been super awesome. There's been a ton of great substance that you've covered here as we're wrapping up. What is the best way for people who are listening to this to keep up with you online?

Val Geisler: Yeah, well, first of all, I want to say thank you because I love having conversations like this or we're digging into the nitty gritty. It's like it's what reminds me how important this work is. You know, that email does matter. And there are so many opportunities and it always gets me fired up to go and work with my clients on the things that I the ideas I come up with scenarios. So, you know, like these are they're not just. Not just opportunities to chat with like minded people like you, but also great places for me to think through my process and share what has worked and what I'm interested in trying. So thank you. And so if you want to have more conversations like this with me, I am on Twitter. It's @LoveValGeisler. I you can also join my email list at fixmychurn dot com chat with me. I respond to all of my emails. So if you reply to my emails, I will personally reply to you. And I'm very active on Twitter. I am not great on LinkedIn. I have a lot of connection requests on there and close it every time I open it. So yeah, if I made in one of those two places for sure.

David Hoos: Awesome. Well thanks again for coming on the show and look forward to keeping in touch with you.

Val Geisler: Yeah. Thanks so much.

David Hoos: Modern Attention is brought to you by Conversmart the agency that helps e-commerce brands like yours drive more incremental revenue, by helping you build highly engaged owned SMS and email audiences. Thanks for listening to another episode of our podcast.